Curse

Rites · Feb 23, 2011, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

Qft

Ask anyone if its ok of you to bring a pet with you when playing hard mode or elite areas.

i VQ with pets, i don't have any problems

hell one of my favorite VQ setups is a 4 ranger pet team

i would never ask anyone i happen to team up with to change their builds, and i think its stupid for anyone else to expect others to change builds. if you want proper synergy, then stick to your heroes so that you have complete control of the synergy. if you want something different, join a pug, let everyone play their builds as is, and learn to work around the synergy issues.

Jerec The Raven · Feb 23, 2011, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

i VQ with pets, i don't have any problems

I also VQ with pets (its one of the best ways to lvl them) and have never had any problem. One of my favorite builds now is a spear beastmaster with Never Rampage Alone and Great Dwarf Weapon. I think other weapons offer more damage for the ranger but the pet AI is not always that smart with non-ranged weapons.

Ugh · Feb 23, 2011, 06:34 PM // 18:34

@above

Sub par does not mean unusable; it means not good. Anyone that knows what they're doing could complete the vast majority of HM PvE "without problems" with no skills or weapons, just standing there as their heroes fought for them. That's just how PvE is. That does not mean standing around and doing nothing is sufficiently effective; it means lolpve.

Reasons Beast Mastery isn't good:

Pet AI is stupid, so pets spend a lot of time running between you and your targets or standing around. This can only be partially fixed with superquick targeting via pet panel or c-spacing. This awkwardness just makes BM annoying (not hard, just annoying) to play effectively. Personally, I wouldn't mind this if there could be a hotkey to lock your pet, but I don't think there can.
Beast Mastery skills lack synergy with things rangers have (bows, namely), but pure beastmasters are significantly less effective than part-time beastmasters, so rangers have to use physical secondaries, which is lame/stupid.
Pets don't do good damage. They do (pretty) good damage on paper, but not in the field. This is mostly due to AI issues and general awkwardness of pets.
Generally, Beast Mastery skills suck. There are a few good ones, but almost all are completely ass-backwards, overly conditional, redundant, useless for PvE, or just bad.

Rites · Feb 23, 2011, 11:52 PM // 23:52

again i must ask.... according to who exactly?

to me, i find rangers to be perfect to how i play the game

they might not work well for maybe how you want to play, but apparently there is a pretty good group out here that enjoy playing as a ranger and these "sub par" issues you seem to have with the class doesn't bother any of us.

Beastmastery skills --- they don't synergize with bows how? from my experience, as long as i do my part (throw a condition on mob to set up for scavenger strike for example) the beast skill does its part. and a melee attacker (my pet) being unblockable while i wail arrows at a mob is also a nice touch.

you claim pets dont do good damage, yet with the proper skill bars set up i have watched pets do damage akin to most warriors

pet AI, there have been many QQs about this, but the simple fact is if you would take the time to LEARN how to setup your pet, you will almost never see your pet run back to you until all mobs are dead. don't blame the pet AI for you not willing to learn how to play properly

Ugh · Feb 24, 2011, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

again i must ask.... according to who exactly?

to me, i find rangers to be perfect to how i play the game

they might not work well for maybe how you want to play, but apparently there is a pretty good group out here that enjoy playing as a ranger and these "sub par" issues you seem to have with the class doesn't bother any of us.

Pretty much everyone that knows what they're talking about agrees rangers could use a buff. I'm not sure why you don't see it. Are you in denial? Are you too proud of your ranger to admit it can't do things well?

Quote:

Beastmastery skills --- they don't synergize with bows how?

Well, actually, it's more Marksmanship that doesn't synergize with BM. Marks just isn't potent enough to warrent use, and, unless you're just spamming Barrage, it doesn't work well with the limited space on the skill bars of Beast Masters, anyway. Then there's the AI thing. Pets run back to you after killing things, so it's best to use a melee weapon.

BM certainly doesn't help the cause, though. The skills are just completely irrelevant to bow rangers.

Quote:

from my experience, as long as i do my part (throw a condition on mob to set up for scavenger strike for example) the beast skill does its part. and a melee attacker (my pet) being unblockable while i wail arrows at a mob is also a nice touch.

I could go through and explain in detail why each shitty BM skill is shitty, but I have neither the time nor the will to do such a thing. Scavenger's is good, but not if its condition is coming from a bow; all the bow condition skills aren't good relative to other options, even those available to the ranger.

Concise list of why BM skills suck (exceptions exist, but there are very few):

Redundancy. Duplicates and near-duplicates of bad skills that don't benefit from duplicates, a lot of defensive skills for a 80 AL tank with -33% damage reduction, a shitload of bad IAS's, etc.
Random stupid shit. Strike as One, the rituals minus EoE, a random effing trap that's in there for God knows why, a stance that forces autoattacking, pet interrupts, etc.
Conditional skills. Pet attacks that require movement, skill casting, or whatever. Conditionals are fine if they give a powerful effect or are relatively easy to achieve, but they don't and they aren't.
Useless stuff. Melandru's Assault, Companionship, etc.

Quote:

you claim pets dont do good damage, yet with the proper skill bars set up i have watched pets do damage akin to most warriors

Henchman warriors, maybe. Human warriors, maybe if they're blinded.

Quote:

pet AI, there have been many QQs about this, but the simple fact is if you would take the time to LEARN how to setup your pet, you will almost never see your pet run back to you until all mobs are dead. don't blame the pet AI for you not willing to learn how to play properly

I said doing this was annoying. I even emphasized that it was just annoying and not hard specifically so you wouldn't say something like this.... It's awkward, not difficult. There is no learning involved. It's not proper play. It's a matter of "do this or be ineffective" not "if you can do this, you'll be extra effective" (which is bad). It doesn't reward skillful play; it makes regular play annoying. It's just clumsy and makes beastmastering a pain in the ass.

miriforst · Feb 24, 2011, 10:29 AM // 10:29

I do play a lot with my pet and i did it even though i got the amazing damage output of flatbow+experts d+rtw+asuran scan+sloth+tripple etc. Heal as one is awesome and makes you really independent with lots of self heal and damage output in one. The problem is your team. Every single miss-aggro or disaster IS going to get blamed on you. "oh stupid pets fault", "Im following pet X!" etc even if your pet isn't even in combat. In an ideal world we would be playing with guildies 100% of the time but believe it or not pugging still does exist. People may be surprised in situations where your pet actually shines but this often happens when its already too late. Granted though ive played a LOT with my pet and find it an interesting option but its simply not viable in hard areas like Doa and UW especially in hard mode (in vanquishes of normal areas they do okay if you go dedicated beastmaster. (lol ferndale faction grind) but then you usually H/H them anyways.)
But you need to go dedicated beastmaster, hybrids are Phail.

EDIT: And i do NOT want to see more synergy with pet in marksmanship or other attributes other than the case with crossfire where they synergizes with allies and not directly pets. Beastmastery is a choice and should not be made mandatory like in gw2 (big mistake). Pets aren't always viable and cant be made always viable and thats the beauty of it not being a mandatory mechanic. Its a choice you can make depending on the situation you are facing.

Ouwebak · Feb 24, 2011, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

Beastmastery is a choice and should not be made mandatory like in gw2 (big mistake).

If you want a bow without a pet, don't pick a ranger but another profession that can use bows.
(technically speaking, a Ranger in GW2 can have 3 aquatic pets which means you'll be without pet when you're on land)

miriforst · Feb 24, 2011, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ouwebak

If you want a bow without a pet, don't pick a ranger but another profession that can use bows.
(technically speaking, a Ranger in GW2 can have 3 aquatic pets which means you'll be without pet when you're on land)

Were talking about gw1 here not gw2, gw2 ranger is already a lost battle for me.

Xiaquin · Feb 24, 2011, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

The problem is your team. Every single miss-aggro or disaster IS going to get blamed on you. "oh stupid pets fault"

A companion won't attack unless you lock its target, engage an enemy or is attacked itself. With aggro, there's always the Heel option. If you're paying attention and read where your party is going you won't let it draw unnecessarily. It's something any melee needs to be aware of, but perhaps they need to add the pets aggro bubble to the compass?

Quote:

EDIT: And i do NOT want to see more synergy with pet in marksmanship or other attributes other than the case with crossfire where they synergizes with allies and not directly pets. Beastmastery is a choice and should not be made mandatory like in gw2 (big mistake).

I think most rangers can agree that they don't currently add much value to a decent party. The pet arguably has the most potential to put rangers back on the map and is no wonder why it was chosen as the defining feature of the GW2 ranger. Imagine, if you will, a pet that could lure or knock an enemy into your trap, or defend your nature ritual. While not possible in GW, pets could be used in new ways to combine abilities with the ranger and offer more than some scratches to the enemy. There will always be blackouts and AI will devote healing resources, so it's not going to become "mandatory" by making it more useful.

Why? · Feb 24, 2011, 06:44 PM // 18:44

the only thing i use a ranger for now is spirit spamming, because they only let us have 2 rit heroes.

But Besides Barrage or Broad Head Arrow, can you really name anything a ranger can do as well as any other class? I've seen more necros with bows recently than rangers.

Xiaquin · Feb 24, 2011, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why?

But Besides Barrage or Broad Head Arrow, can you really name anything a ranger can do as well as any other class? I've seen more necros with bows recently than rangers.

You won't find a lot of support for BHA (easy to dodge/long recharge). Besides, even a warrior can bring Technobabble and daze more than BHA.

Try Archer's Signet and a silencing string to give the longest durations. For bosses I still prefer Concussion Shot; it's not worth the elite slot. Add Evas or other rapid damage and caster threats go away.

For other threats, there's weakness, cracked armor and more in the library of other PvE skills. It's not pretty to rely on them but with open space on the bar there's plenty of usefulness to tap.

miriforst · Feb 25, 2011, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

A companion won't attack unless you lock its target, engage an enemy or is attacked itself. With aggro, there's always the Heel option. If you're paying attention and read where your party is going you won't let it draw unnecessarily. It's something any melee needs to be aware of, but perhaps they need to add the pets aggro bubble to the compass?

I think most rangers can agree that they don't currently add much value to a decent party. The pet arguably has the most potential to put rangers back on the map and is no wonder why it was chosen as the defining feature of the GW2 ranger. Imagine, if you will, a pet that could lure or knock an enemy into your trap, or defend your nature ritual. While not possible in GW, pets could be used in new ways to combine abilities with the ranger and offer more than some scratches to the enemy. There will always be blackouts and AI will devote healing resources, so it's not going to become "mandatory" by making it more useful.

What i meant with the post is that even if its isn't your fault your team sometimes turns on you simply because you got a mechanic non-rangers love to hate. Its like blaming the monk you died when you are using frenzy and healing signet, its made into a scapegoat for your failures. Even pinging your build invokes rage in your teamates and if they didn't notice the ping they will go: "Im following pet X!" and "WTF pet??". I realise i am biased since i have a hard time imagining what would happen with your team chat if you brought fluffy into doa. But agreed is that pets maybe should have a pet aggro bubble to help preventing your own failures. A less clunky control would help to. But as i explained i have only respect for dedicated beastmasters in pve, if you use a bow i can't and wont take you seriously. Even though i tried to create a usable hybrid build a while ago. It used:

Strike as one
Scavenger strike
Sloth hunters shot
Sundering attack
Brutual strike
Needling shot
Experts focus
Comfort animal

This is for normal gameplay only and NOT elite or hard mode where your pet would be killed instantly. Though it doesn't contain any pve skill it outputs okay damage for regular play. The reason it wasn't built around pve skills is that i tweaked one of my experimental pvp builds for pve. The pvp build was itself a result of last years ranger nerf.

Ugh · Feb 25, 2011, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

EDIT: And i do NOT want to see more synergy with pet in marksmanship or other attributes other than the case with crossfire where they synergizes with allies and not directly pets. Beastmastery is a choice and should not be made mandatory like in gw2 (big mistake). Pets aren't always viable and cant be made always viable and thats the beauty of it not being a mandatory mechanic. Its a choice you can make depending on the situation you are facing.

By that, I meant Marks needs to be good enough to warrant a spot on the bar of a beastmaster, and Beast Mastery skills need to stop having antisynergy with bows, not that BM should bleed over into Marks.

Quote:

if you use a bow i can't and wont take you seriously. Even though i tried to create a usable hybrid build a while ago. It used:

Strike as one
Scavenger strike
Sloth hunters shot
Sundering attack
Brutual strike
Needling shot
Experts focus
Comfort animal

Acceptable Postnerf Hybrid builds:

Bravery

About 90-110 dps on Master (not including DW), about half of which is armor-ignoring.
Always use a flatbow, vampiric preferred.
No SY because bows are slow, so it isn't really helpful.
Expert Focus could be RtW if you prefer that for some reason.
13 Exp, 11 Marks, 11 BM

Bad-assery

About the same dps as above (assuming pet isn't under EBSoH), but more range, more spike, and less reliability (since your energy's jumping around all the time and you're more likely to miss, I guess).
Use a flatbow (or shortbow) because hornbows can only get one shot between the pene/sunder recharges. I generally use zealous, but you don't have to.
SY wouldn't really work well here, either.
Same atts as above.

Barrage

Pet gets about 40-50 dps on Master by itself, assuming it isn't under EBSoH. It's actually higher in the field because the pet just runs around spiking shit with Brutal; it doesn't have to wear targets down below 50% by itself. Your dps varies.
Boring as hell, tbh, but I guess that's subjective.
Use a flatbow, probably. Vampiric or zealous.
Optional can be whatever. Preferably not a rupt if you're going with a flatbow.
Same atts as above.

My pure beastmaster got only a slightly higher dps of 90-120, not including DW, but it would likely be higher in the field because pures have a greater proportion of armor-ignoring damage. There's less party support due to lack of EBSoH, but there are knockdowns, which are cool, and optionals, so he could probably take along EBSoH if he wanted to.

Hybrids aren't that much worse than pures, though; they're better if you have orders, better if you need SY, and better if you need aoe.

Amy Awien · Feb 25, 2011, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

.. But as i explained i have only respect for dedicated beastmasters in pve, if you use a bow i can't and wont take you seriously. ...

You're doing the exact same thing as the players that you describe going into a rage when they find fluffy on the team ...

miriforst · Feb 26, 2011, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You're doing the exact same thing as the players that you describe going into a rage when they find fluffy on the team ...

I said i won't take you seriously but i won't rage or advice you to play something else unless were doing for example DoA in which a hybrid build would be pure suicide. Dedicated beastmasters i realise the power of (which other do not and thus rage no matter what build you got). There are good and bad pet builds but the pet ragers im talking about rage you for having a pet, not for how you play with your pet. I will kindly advise someone with the build i myself posted above for regular play to tweak his build more dedicated if we are up for hard mode or elite content because hybrid builds with only comfort animal as protection for your pet is not going to work there. And a lot of the bow hybrids ive seen in play by others are so packed by both bow attacks, preparations and pet attacks that only one defensive skill is available (sometimes none, like in my build). Dedicated beastmasters are a pain to master but is one of the most powerful (as well as impracticall) builds a ranger can get his hands on currently.

Amy Awien · Feb 26, 2011, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

I said i won't take you seriously but i won't rage ...

It's the exact same thing, you've made up your opinion and exclude others - if you rage or 'take someone not seriously' doesn't matter, you're behaving just as bad.

You have your view, another view might be that your team's protters and healers have skills that are more suited to keeping your pet alive. Bringing pet protection and healing then means you have less rooms for skills that help you kill stuff faster.

miriforst · Feb 26, 2011, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It's the exact same thing, you've made up your opinion and exclude others - if you rage or 'take someone not seriously' doesn't matter, you're behaving just as bad.

You have your view, another view might be that your team's protters and healers have skills that are more suited to keeping your pet alive. Bringing pet protection and healing then means you have less rooms for skills that help you kill stuff faster.

okey sadly can confess that i am one of those with little faith in hybrids.

(though i constantly try to prove myself wrong by testing new hybrid variations.

)

But my skepticism are based on these problems.

Attribute splits - Expertise always needs to be high even with scavenger strike, and then you also need 10+ marks for the bow and a decent rank in bm to actually make it worth and to prevent long disables.
Lack of space - If you are supposed to have a preparation and 2-4 bow attacks + 2 - 3 pet attacks + comfort animal the slots for pet protection become scarce and thus leading up to the next problem:
Fragillity - Without a layer of pet protection (call of protection, ogy's cry and if you got heal as one symbiotic bond) your pet is extremely fraggile. The 33% update helped a lot with this but it is a problem for harder areas often shutting you down every once in a while (and with lower bm the shutdown becomes more critical). Also the attribute split somewhat forces you to exclude self heal from other than beastmastery, which are quite weak at lower ranks.

On the good side though is:

Okay dps - Two medium damage sources makes for a larger damage source.

Oops sry i forgott what i was going to add, ill add it later when i remember. There was atleast one more good point i think... darn...

EDIT: Yeah i remember the control! If you use strike as one the controls are okay actually.

But a dedicated beastmaster got some interesting strengths: Focusing on two attributes gives you more power in each skill, a resilient pet boosted by a layer of pet defense gives you a backup crowd controller with a dire pet (which is more tempting for ai to attack) while dealing high damage (200 damage even in hardmode with fast recharge) and a independence with loads of self heal (heal as one) while still dealing good damage (heal as one, enraged lunge). They lack in Aoe to some hybrids though (barrage) and controls are still clunky making you useless if your pet gets stuck and refuse to follow orders properly (strike as one is not recommended for dedicated beastmasters).

One of the most valuable skills though for both hybrids and dedicated beastmasters which i never leave without is scavenger strike, having unlimited energy is fun.

When one of the monk tell you "I won't be healing your pet" you realize that you are not that popular. Not that i expect anyone to heal them but it still hurts a little XD
I would of course like to see updates to hybrid builds to make them viable without pin-holing rangers to pets but currently they are a bit like frenzy + healsig + mending, no one is going to feel sorry for you if you die

But i am trying to overcome my skepticism Amy you can thrust me on that :P

AtlaWolffriend · Feb 26, 2011, 03:53 PM // 15:53

There's another game that recently went into "headstart" (name begins with an "R"

), that seems to have gotten pets right -- more controls on the attacks, and the pet actually generates aggro and can act as a mini-tank (and the ranger line even has a skill to transfer the player's aggro to the pet). It's probably too late to build a similar mechanic into GW, but there's hope that GW2's pets will work as well.

ensoriki · Feb 26, 2011, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

Beastmastery is a choice and should not be made mandatory like in gw2 (big mistake).

It's a choice in GW1, it is not in GW2 which is not a mistake. There is more than one bowman in GW2 so complaining about the use of pets is silly. It's assuming just because the professions names are the same in GW2 they must work the same.

It's not mandatory here, but right now BM is pretty effective as far as ranger options go.

miriforst · Feb 26, 2011, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

It's a choice in GW1, it is not in GW2 which is not a mistake. There is more than one bowman in GW2 so complaining about the use of pets is silly. It's assuming just because the professions names are the same in GW2 they must work the same.

It's not mandatory here, but right now BM is pretty effective as far as ranger options go.

Taking out options is from my point of view a bad move. in gw1 pets had their own attribute and thus was completely optional. Brilliant! So we have a nature based bow wielder that do not have to use a pet 100% of the time? And still be competive? Nice!

Now in gw2 they are aiming at being the next generation and flush up gameplay and get rid of old trinities (thus bow wielding warriors, meleeing necromancers and healing elementalists). And in my book a pure pet class is at least if not even more stoneaged than a dedicated healer class. While the other classes got a lot of entirely different roles the ranger felt to as if it lost roles instead and was pinholed into being the "pet class guy". So we take the profession with the option to take a pet when he feels like it and make it built in to the profession and balance his power around always having a pet! And arenanet goes into a chorus of applauses since everyone loves pets right? Not so much when you fight the shatterer.

My point of view but i know it isn't shared

EDIT: Sorry back on topic now guys, theres quite some time till gw2 beta and this is the gw2 forums but if you are interested you could watch out for me at pet and ranger discussions at gw2 guru